“Social distancing is the hardest ordeal in the history of underwear”

by Isabelle De Vos

When I first met Geertje, Tine & Fien, UNDERWEAR was already an established fine luxury lingerie boutique in Brussels, while Voshaes was a nameless project aimed at establishing independent labels as a strong brand. One of the reasons we started doing these interviews was us being curious about how brands and people we value and respect deal with “new normal”, and Underwear was high on the list. So, one night in different locations…

Voshaes: Hello. Ladies, thanks for joining me after your busy day of orders. 

In chorus: Thank you! 

Tine: We are currently in the shop with a maximum of 2 people to prepare and deliver orders. With three it’s impossible because we always tend to be in the same square metre. With 2 we barely manage not to touch each other. The same goes for the photos we take, when there' s three of us we touch each other too often and that's not allowed! Social distancing is the toughest challenge in the history of underwear.

Voshaes: I got to know you when I was doing research for a client. Your boutique is a reference when it comes to quality, service and good communication.Your story starts from a good vibe and is brought with a healthy gut feeling, is that right?

Tine: We are very passionate about what we do, we want it all to be good. I started in 2006 and Fien in 2008. It was also a strange period then, just after the crisis, when you had to reinvent yourself.  We soon realised that there is a good vibe going on between the three of us, we' re definitely lucky bastards on that level.

Geertje: We are complementary. Everyone has her own strengths. It was a relief for me to work with Fien and Tine. I no longer had to compromise between the staff members. Issues are now discussed among each other, without this having to pass through me. 

Fien: You get that feeling as soon as you enter the shop. And yet it took us two years at the time to decide whether or not I should join Geertje and Tine. We thought for a long time that that wouldn't work out as sisters. 

Voshaes: That turned out to be…

Fien: The only right decision! -laughter- Things are working really well between the three of us. 

Voshaes: You are proud of the shop and celebrate this, it's very contagious.

Fien: I guess that's why our communication works. When one of us mentions something, you can be sure the others were having thoughts about it, too! We then discuss things, and from there we make a decision, it all happens organically.  We feel when one of us is under stress, when the moon is full or even when the moons arrive - laughs.

Tine: In this way we take away difficult tasks from each other's spouses. - laughs -Underwear is actually good for our couples.  This year we celebrated New Year together with our partners. Little Bobby (Tine's son) also became a bit part of everyone's family. 

Fien: Yeah, so does Geertjes' son and his girlfriend.
Geert: And like your sweetheart now! (to Fien) Hahahaha! We' re a real “framily”. 

Voshaes: You decided to show off your own goods... quite challenging when it comes to the product…

Tine: - Laughs- We didn't make this up for our Instagram. When we started writing newsletters a couple of years ago, we used the photos on our website, afterwards, we ran the story through on Instagram. Percentage-wise, our newsletter was opened and read a lot, and we noticed right away the sales when it was released.

Fien: First, we took pictures with friends and family with a self-timer. We never showed our heads. At a certain point, we decided that it would be easier if we did the shoots with just the three of us. We'd drink a glass of champagne first. Otherwise, we wouldn't dare, and we'd be too stiff on the pictures.

Tine: One day we showed our heads, the reactions were so good. Customers were enthusiastic that they saw both the products and the faces from the store. As soon as we were on the pictures with the three of us, the difference was huge.

Geertje: In the beginning, I never wanted to participate, because I felt like I was too old. By joining, however, that feeling of being too old has entirely disappeared. 

Tine: Now Geertje holds the title of a fully-fledged lingerie model. We stand for everything we do. Today, we take off our clothes, and we make that picture. If we are looking a little thicker, so be it. If we don't look pretty, so be it; We're not questioning it.

Voshaes: A clear answer to the unrealistic image of women that is still being presented to us.

Geertje: You're right!  That's what makes us so recognisable, as humans. That's how people like it.

Tine: It also came very spontaneously as a reaction to what we experience in the shop. That's not something we thought up in advance, as many large chains do now. They let a size 38 run the catwalk, pretend to have a plus-size model, and the whole fashion industry goes "wow". The underwear we sell is not to hide or cover-up. Also, in our swimwear assortment, we aim very hard for 'show what you do have'.  As long as people keep looking at over-photoshopped models, no matter what size they are, without dimples, without bumps without nothing…., there will be a real need for doing what we do.

Fien: It’s like that lobe under your armpit. If a customer complains about "that lobe", we grab it and ask the woman to keep her arm in the air ... and that doesn't work, of course …because you need that skin to move your arm! (laughing)

Voshaes: You set an example by talking about your own experiences.

Tine: Exactly, and we don't just do that on Instagram. We're also not shy to take off our sweater in the cabin ourselves. I have varicose veins as well. Besides, each body evolves more or less equally. Our eye-opener was my pregnancy, the diagnosis of Bechterew for Fien and Geertje’s menopause, which was all at the same time. Our bodies went through significant changes. Through everything we experience for ourselves, we can better understand and help our clients. We see women who are pregnant, entering the menopause or suffering from a long-term illness. Often they do not understand what is happening physically, because there are still so many taboos about bodies. We do it for these women.

Fien: When you make time to listen to a woman who is physically going through a significant change, everything comes out, frustrations and pent-up emotions, everything that has no place in our society.

Geertje: People now see us as hands-on experts, which makes it easier for them to talk to us. 

Tine: When we tell a new mom in the cabin that it takes at least two years before your breasts regain their old shape after a pregnancy, you first feel despair, followed by relief to know that she's "normal". There's so much pressure to reshape your body as fast as possible after pregnancy. That's why we started talking about this openly on our social media. 
I only have one message; To embrace yourself! Sometimes I feel like I'm on repeat in the shop. But that' s fine with me. When we haven't had to convince anyone for a week that nipples aren't bad or that it's okay to live with big booty, then,  I realise we've come a long way. But we manage because people who are involved in our story start applying it to themselves. We notice these small evolutions.

Fien: With first-time customers, we have to get the engine started. Then it seems like we are preaching. Some of them will get caught up in the story quickly, and others you sense they will need a few more visits at the shop - smiles - 

Voshaes: How is the influence of men? 

Tine: We see two kinds of men. The supportive, they don't see any of the problems mentioned their spouses. They're amazing. You see an admirative look in their eyes when having a look in the cabin. And then you have the harsh men, for whom a woman must look flawless. Sometimes you hear real bullshit, but I'm not too shy to point out to them. Hoping they'll reflect on it later on.

Fien: The complexes those women are dealing with aren't their own; they're the men’s. That weighs so heavily on self-confidence.

Geertje: And then you have those who won't let go of the image their mom imposed on them through education. I was lucky to have a mother who liked me very much. You guys have a mom like that too, huh? (smile)

Fien: Yes, that's true. My mom was full of self-confidence. She use to say: "Do you really think the whole beach is looking at you?" She thought of herself as the best and the most beautiful. - laughs - 

Tine: Yeah, our mom does not understand, for example, that she has never been asked for our photoshoot. -laughters - . The fact we’re not troubled about our bodies and that we do what we do it’s thanks to her.

Geertje: We often see mothers projecting all their insecurities onto their daughters. 

Fien: Young women who say: "My mama said that is ugly." How can you say such things to your daughter? Those are severe traumas, complexes that are difficult to overcome.

Tine: Some consider surgery to get rid of those complexes, but there's no guarantee it will be solved that way. We know for some operation could be an option, and others who absolutely shouldn't do that. If they reduce or enlarge their breasts, it won't change how they feel about themselves, and then the problem will become something else like wrinkles, the belly ... That's why we're always cautious about this subject.

Voshaes: Women today know better what they need?

Tine: Our customers rely on our knowledge and know-how. Most of them come in with the message I'm looking for a bra or bathing suit. period. By asking questions and talking you find out what suits them and what they like. Even when they’re able to point what they don't like, you come to something. But most of them come in very open-minded. We made this possible by our way of communicating, our image wants us to be accessible.

Geertje: We believe we have the best shop in the world and that's exactly as we put it. Only by believing it ourselves can you become credible.

Voshaes: Over the last years, buying behaviour has been evolving. How do you sense that?

Geertje: A crisis makes you think, that’s what everybody’s experiencing now. We now have a much more diverse clientele than before 2008.  

Fien: We have more clients today, but they buy less. Ou range got wider, from an A-cup to an G-cup and from very narrow back to a 105. We specialise in small triangles as well as large sizes. We wanted to have a stronger selection for young people. That's why we introduced brands such as Wacoal, and we looked for young designers for swimwear collections, to offer a different price range. We turned into a real lingerie boutique. The crisis of 2008 led to this approach.

Fien: We may be a regular lingerie shop, but on the other hand you hear from young girls that buying a bra at Underwear is also an experience. They offer it as a gift to their friends because they have to experience it. I remember when we were young, Tine and I saved up to go to Underwear together. It’s amazing to see young women doing the same. They’re saving up to buy decent quality!

Voshaes: Geertje, We see you - masked with a beautiful foulard- riding your bike through Brussels to deliver. How does this work for you?

Geertje: -Laughs - My kind of humour..., I don't know, that's my way of surviving in this world. I feel good about myself and I'm happy, I like to share that with people. 

That being said we took matters into our own hands, with positive results. We are really getting responses to what we post, people are encouraging us. It’s nice to see that there's a real connection with the store.

Voshaes: How about giving tailored advice?  Cause that's what you're really known for.

Tine: We've only got one return so far. We try to ask as many questions as possible, via WhatsApp, FaceTime, ... we improvise, but it works. Our service is what characterises our work. None of us 3 is a born saleswoman, but we found our passion in the product, and that's how we work now through Instagram too. We don't just want to sell our lingerie, and we want to help our customers. We're not excited about an online shop, because we won't be able to give the same advice. We'd instead put in more efforts, and be sure to deliver the right thing to the customer. 

Fien: We've already said to clients they better wait, as we don't want to sell n'importe quoi, that's not in our nature. Even now, we continue to attract new customers via our Instagram selling service. There are people far away and for whom it is not feasible to come to the store. They are now finding their way via our Instagram shop - smiles-.

Tine: Too bad for the beautiful season we bought in. We closed the shop even before it got official. It felt safer, as well as towards our customers. So we decided to close and to wait.

Fien: We' re now evaluating the situation from day to day.

Tine: We’re all in this together, so you can only make the best out of it. We try to have fun, that also comes across to our customers. Nobody wants to buy anything from you when you’re complaining. In the end I think people like being part of what we do at Underwear. We really made our world into a women's community. 

Geertje: yes, it's pretty fascinating.

Voshaes: what is it you are missing the most today?

in chorus: The people!

Fien: You know, it is really kinda something working at our shop. All those people you meet, stories and lives. 

Tine: To experience what goes on behind this glass wall is a fantastic job, but also just beautiful to have in my life.

Fien: The shop is our safe-haven. Take, for example, after the terrorist attacks. We just came here to sit together and say something to each other. Or, when you're having a bad day, instead of moping around at home, you just come to the store, and whoops they’re gone. 

Geertje: Even other people sometimes come over for a chat, not only women, also men. 

Tine: However, we are not hyper social in real life. 

Fien: -laugh - these two are really socially awkward in real life… -laugh even more -

Voshaes: Fashion weeks and related fairs are postponed. How will you get new collections in the store? 

Fien: If we have to choose and buy everything online for the next seasons, then so be it. Honestly, It's not bad to choose from smaller collections. we' ll be happy because there will still be a lot of stock. Again, It will show itself.

Tine: And besides, we had reached a point where something had to change in fashion. Okay, all fairs are postponed out of precaution. But we don't talk about the production of this winter collections. That collection (2020) is now in production, but everything has come to a complete standstill. They speak of July, August and September to start up again. We can’t do anything else to wait and see how it turns out.

Voshaes: How do you feel about seasonalities? Are these still relevant?

Fien: This is why we normally don't participate in sales as a matter of principle. We have end of series but anything from the season doesn't come on sale. We buy in years, not in seasons. Why would you suddenly no longer sell a black bra in the summer? 

Tine: This whole sales system has been bothering us for a long time. What makes something suddenly worth 70% less? The fact that Covid-19 has crippled the whole world economically really allows the whole industry to think together. When major players like Net-à-Porter are closed, you know that stuff is happening that was actually needed a long time ago. For me, this crisis is going back to some kind of essence. We will not be rushing out new collections, just to be able to sell a lot. No, we're going to go with our instincts and buy what's really needed.

Voshaes: Has Covid-19 made you change your approach in the future?

Fien: We question everything at the end of each season, ahead to the next one. We already had some things we wanted to do differently before Covid-19 outbreak. It's not that we're always going to sell through Instagram from now on. I think that as a shop, or a brand you have to reassess, never take things for granted. 

Geertje: We’re adaptable, that's our strength. We've survived the terrorist attacks, never had problems with the piétonnier (cf. the works to transform the Anspach in Brussels, into car-free zone), and I hope we're able to survive this crisis the same way.

Voshaes: You’re a premium boutique, with a particular image. What criteria does a brand have to get inside? 

Geertje: We introduce a brand into the store when we are a  hundred percent convinced of the product. 

Fien: We are always keen on new brands but we are very critical on fit, style and comfort. It also happens that we are almost hundred percent convinced but not totally. Some brands work with our feedback, and when they return, we get them in. Other brands don't comply, so they stay outside.

Tine: I think it's interesting for young designers to get feedback in order to improve your product. Lingerie is something very rewarding, but nevertheless a difficult product to develop. We have two important criteria. First of all, to preserve our image and secondly, to be strict on engineering and comfort.

Voshaes: Lingerie isn't exactly the most sustainable product?

Tine: It’s one of the world’s most polluting industries. Don’t buy too much and use as long as possible is the message. You can buy a good quality skirt and keep it forever. But a bra will only last a year and a half.  So, by definition, lingerie is a disposable product , but we need it.

Fien: Brands abandoned Europe for the sake of quality and finishing because Europe stopped investing in its ateliers. A bra made in Belgium can't have the same technicality as a bra manufactured in Tunisia, where today you have the better fabric and machine workshops. Women workers get a personal bank account today, the minimum investment if we speak in terms of sustainability.

Geertje: The reason why brands massively moved to ateliers abroad is that our ateliers got too expensive due to high labour costs. They moved to countries like Tunisia and China, which became able to invest in technology and machinery in their production process. As a result, we have missed out on a lot of those evolutions. Tine: It is a difficult discussion.

Voshaes: What if we all go back and buy local? Sustainability is also a responsibility that belongs to the consumer.

Tine: The world is literally on the shelf now. If this crisis has been good for something, it's for "#shoplocal". Many people still don't realise that this is so important. We have customers who come here to try something on and say they'll order it online. They only get it after we've explained we don't earn anything this way, not for the advice we've just given, nothing. Sustainability is also starting from the consumer's demand, so yes, buy local.

Fien: It's the same people who complain that the Dansaert runs empty. When you ask them if they shop here, they answer "no, everything online, it's easier..."

Voshaes: What do you experience as a positive, after one month of quarantine?

Fien: For me, this happened at the right moment. I was working 60 hours a week, growing my business as a sports coach (@coachfien), besides working at the shop is heavy. After this isolation, I’m going to work differently. This crisis brought me the mandatory rest I needed after two years of hard work, so I enjoy every day. 

Tine: I love being around my child so much at the moment. I get to know him better now. I already knew that I was in the right place with my sweetheart, but this confinement confirmed it. 

Geertje: I feel the same way about my husband. He is the only person I have physical contact with, whom I can get close enough to. When you realise that as a couple you manage to be together so much, it gives you a warm feeling.

Fien: We’ve been together with my boyfriend,  for five months now. Lately, I often only come home to sleep. We looked forward to a long trip together and saw that as the big relation test, but corona quarantine is a way bigger test - laughs.

Tine: The thing I find most extraordinary is that it is the same for everyone around the world, which makes me believe that there is a shift happening in the world. Just like when we were so absurdly optimistic about the change of the year. We were convinced that 2020 would be such a particular year. It could still be, in other ways maybe that’s we’re discovering now.

Voshaes: Thank you so much for your time, keep on doing what you do!

www.dunderwear.be
All pictures © Lies Engelen. Illustrations by Voshaes.